Braco Pobric 0:00
Welcome to Business and happiness podcast. I'm your host Braco Pobric edge. This episode is sponsored by life Success Academy, a place where you recreate your business and personal happiness. Alright, everyone, I am really, really pleased that today, we have Zack. She's a master of music psychology, and also certified positive psychology master coach. So joy, welcome. How are you? Thank you very much. It's nice to be here. Lovely to talk about music is my favorite subject. So, yes, a very long one. Yeah, so what I was thinking is we talked about, you know, connection between music and happiness. And I was thinking how, if you go back, you know, 100 years ago, that only extremely rich, powerful kings, you know, had access to music. And now today, you know, we all have access to music. So so let's talk about your what is the connection and why
Zoe Zelick 1:08
I'm going to take issue with what you've just said, actually, because it depends how you define music. But music for me is, is a form of communication, and particularly emotional expression. And there's some proof that it actually predates language. So we can be sure that our ancestors not just 100 years ago, but whenever humans first existed, they were trying to communicate using pitch and using rhythm and, and using sounds that would communicate that what they were feeling, they'd be warning other people about things coming along, and they'd be showing their sadness before words were actually created. And then, when they've been looking at like neuroscience and looking at mental imagery of the brain, they actually find that a lot of the areas of the brain that are used for language are also used in music. But music has other things as well. It's, it's one of the few things where if you do an image, people's brains light up like a Christmas tree, you know, it's all yes.
And that's why it's been used in our in things like a treatment for dementia. Music as often Yes. Because it's one of the last things to go. So it's a it's a remarkable thing. And it is, music is found in I think every single culture of the world that there has ever been, and ever is likely to be. And there is music of some sort. So you know, this is amazing in itself.
Braco Pobric 2:34
Yeah, this is interesting view. Yeah, of course, I agree. And even if I don't, this is your specialty. So Jokes aside, of course, I agree. But what I was really referring to, you know, going to the concerts and listening definitely when I say music, so. So I apologize. Maybe I was just referring to different terms of Minister music. That's what I was thinking now we can just play? Um, yeah. So So you're saying it's going back? This was the way of communication before even language was inaccurate? Wow.
Zoe Zelick 3:09
Yes, this is this is what I mean. Obviously, experts will disagree on exactly what and when, and how, and nobody can prove it for 100%. But it's certainly looking that way. Which is an amazing thought that perhaps, perhaps music actually morphed into language. It could even be a precursor to language, which is an amazing thing. But it certainly I think music is about I think it's for everyone for a start. So I don't Yes. Like, the attitude that some people have that is just for the talented few. That's not it at all. Music is about self expression. It's about sharing the emotion that you have through pitch and through rhythm in the moment, and it can of course, just be for you. But it's also about communicating to other people. So
Braco Pobric 4:02
you play or do listen, or do you do both? Right? Yeah,
Zoe Zelick 4:07
well, any any form of involvement in music at all, accesses a whole range of different skills. So it's, I put it down to self expression. So I think if you if you use music in any way you can use it to express yourself. Now singing for me is is the main way of doing that because it is so personal. So of course you can listen to music and can get involved in music. You can use it to affect your mood to boost your mood, or even sometimes just to get a negative emotion out. And maybe dancing along to music and things like that make it more physical as well. But singing has that element but it also has the fact that you are the instrument. So you get the benefits that you get from listening but you also get the benefit of being the instrument and feeling the vibrations feeling the resonance
I mean, sound therapy is used as a thing in itself. But if you imagine the power of sound therapy, plus, you've also got words, as well, you're the only instrument, the human voice is the only instrument that uses words. So you've also got the meaning of the words alongside that. And that together is a winning combination, as a way of expressing yourself in a way that words by themselves can't really do. And sometimes music by itself can't really do. But you put the two things together, and you've got a very, very powerful vehicle for self expression. Why do you think there is a, there's there's a huge connection between you know, our feelings, and moods and music. And often when we want to feel good? That's what we do. We listen to the music, and sometimes we will listen sad songs, not to become sad, but sometimes they make us feel good. I know, like, certain parts of the world. That's really the music is very, you know, melancholic. It's very sad. And yet I love I love this music. It makes me feel good, although, you know, they singing about some sad things in life. What do you think? Yeah, yeah, totally. I mean, you, you'll see music used in cultures all around the world for important events, which include funerals, for instance, yes, or, and obviously, the is not necessarily used to achieve joy in that situation. It's a, it's a tool, it's used to achieve either a memory of that person or unity amongst the people that are there. So in listening to something all together, you're doing something with other people, and you're sharing that experience, maybe sharing your memories of the person that you associate with that music, or it's creating a mood that you can all feel and share. So it's a sort of like a shared feeling. Almost.
Points. Yeah, yeah, there's those things. This is what I mean about music. It's, it's personal, but it's also social, as well, you can do it privately, you can listen to something privately on your own and have a good cry about something, if that makes you feel better. And it probably will make you it'll purge you of all those emotions. But you can also do that in public. And it's considered more socially acceptable if you have music to unite you that it might be otherwise without it. So you and it gives you permission to feel things I just said, really cool. You say will purge your emotions, I love that. Hmm, I think get rid of the negative stuff. Yes. Um, mean, as humans, we hold on to stuff that really we need to let go of, we hold on to the negative stuff. And maybe we think we've dealt with it, but we haven't really, we've pushed it down somewhere. And it's stored in our bodies somewhere. But music can actually bring that up, it can get it out. And it's partly to do with the vibrations of the sound itself, that it can physically get to that part of the body. And it's partly to do with how you express that and how you actually get it out. And if you're moving around as well, if you're dancing along, then you've got another bonus to that as well, you've got another way of getting rid of it. I wouldn't do that. I'll just go to basement now just get have a loud music and Just Dance by myself and have fun and smiling. You know, I know, brilliant emotions. Because of course, you get the endorphins, then from the physical exercise. And you can also get serotonin through listening to music so you can calm yourself down. There's also dopamine, as well. There's also oxytocin, which is the bonding, cannabis, which is why it becomes such a social experience listening to music or playing music or singing music. It's something you can do with other people because it creates a bonding between you and the other people doing it. It's one of the few things you can do with any number of people as well. You can have 1000s of people all singing the same song. And there's not many activities you can do that with so many people it's got everything. So as an artist yourself and I know you perform, you perform with your husband and you perform live and you also you do you started doing some online as well. So tell me what what is that bring you what emotions and why does that make you feel good when you go out there and you perform and you sing and you you know play? And then you have people singing with you or whatever happens walk me through that experience from Hey, you know, I have a I have this performance tonight. And what's happening from I'm getting ready to get home and this is what's up you know from walk me through that process, please. Yes, wow. When I'm getting ready I'm actually quite calm about getting
I don't necessarily over prepare on the day, I will have done, I've done 30 years worth of practice. So I know, I'm good enough. I know I've got. So
that's not what I'm dwelling on, I'm usually worried about other things, actually, I'm usually worried about what I'm going to wear, and whether the technology is going to work and whether I've left something behind if we've gone out to a gig. So it's the, but what happens for me, and the reason that I'm drawn to doing it all the time, it's the excitement of the actual event itself. So shortly before I perform, this, the excitement starts to build. And there's the anticipation of that there's the kind of like, Oh, I wonder how this is going to go. And and yes, it can register as nervousness sometimes. But I see that as part of the processes, of course, it keeps me focused on what I'm doing. Without the nervousness, it might be a little bit too laid back a little bit too easy. So that kind of keeps me feeling sharp and focused on the moment. It's quite a mindful experience.
Braco Pobric 11:11
So So I want to, I want to ask you difference between and prepared. You know, you know, I'm getting a little nervous right before the show, the show started, right. And you mentioned mindfulness, and I didn't want to connect with that. The show started. You performing. You're the artist, what happens there? What are your thoughts? Where are you?
Zoe Zelick 11:33
Oh, I don't really have any feels? Well, at least I don't think I do. Because I'm not aware of them at all. All of a sudden, I'm performing and I'm totally, they're totally present.
Braco Pobric 11:44
So you are totally like, as Dr. Dr. Jack like, Dr. Mel, check me Hi, I would say in the floor. That's it? Oh, yes. Yeah,
Zoe Zelick 11:53
completely. And utterly. It's just like, it's like a switch or most it's just straight, they're immediately immersed, and everything. And it's and for me, it's a social experience as well. So the, the the crowd, the audience, whether they're online, or whether they're in person, they're actually part of the experience as well. So it's about me performing my other band members that might be playing with me and the audience all together in this bubble, I suppose. And I can feel I can feel them. I know that sounds a little bit odd, but I can feel what they are feeling. At all. I know I know what effect I'm having on people I know whether I've drawn them in, or whether I've still got to try a bit harder and pull them in. So I can kind of I feel the mote the music, obviously, the music has an effect on me. But it's mainly about how it's going through me and affecting the audience. And I will say different things. But for me, that's how it is. It's about how I channel it to the audience and draw them in and make them part of the experience as well. Right. I want to get it right. It's there's nothing better in the world. It's brilliant. Of course, absolutely amazing.
Braco Pobric 13:08
Yeah, I was I was years ago, I was talking to gentleman, his name is Derek Lacroix. And he was like World Champion of Public Speaking, I don't know, 20 years ago. And he just started with me. And I wanted actually to share this with you and see, just get your total. I'll tell you quickly what it is. He is comedian. And he said that there was one time he did a gig. And everybody in the audience would laugh like absolutely everyone. But there was a one lady in a corner, she would just look at like this, right? The entire show. He said, I tried everything I can just to make her laugh, but she just did not. And at the end of the show, he said she came to me and said Darrow this was the funniest gig I've ever seen. Right? So the people express their feelings differently. I'm sure you're running to this where, you know, some people are jumping on whatever the song is. And there are other people that they don't show you. Do you run into this? And what do you do? And what goes through your mind if anything?
Zoe Zelick 14:06
Yes, well, when I when I was younger, that used to put me off. So I think oh, no, I'm not going down very well. What should I do? Nobody's listening, people are leaving the room. And I would worry about everything. Over the years, though, I've had lots of conversations with people who are exactly the same as you say, they come up to me afterwards. They tell me, that's the best experience they've ever had. And you think, well, that really wasn't obvious from how you reacted. But they they prefer to tell me in private sometimes, I have lots of conversations in ladies lavatories. Have people come up and talk to me in the toilets about it, and about how they felt about it, and usually about how they would really love to sing as well. Or maybe they've got a secret singing habit. And nobody else knows. Because they only ever do it in the shower or in the car. are one of their on their own conversations. Oh, secret singing habits, let's not keep them secret anymore. Let's go out and share. Because as soon as you start to do that you find that there are other people that have secret singing habits as well. And they quite like to join you. And then all of a sudden, there's two of you who are doing it together. And instead of feeling that it's something that you have to keep secret is something you can share with someone else. So you've got that double the joy.
Braco Pobric 15:31
I have a secret to share with you. It's not really a secret. But that's just something Yeah, you don't know a lot of people don't. When I was younger, he used to sing in chorus, we traveled all over the world, not the world, but many countries. And then we had a band, and we would actually perform at different places saying, you know, played at the radio station locally, it was just so much fun. And I can relate to how, how music and and performing can bring us incredible joy. And at the same time, we're bringing other people happiness, right? Yeah, definitely. It's, it's a great feeling, isn't it? It's beautiful feeling. And I think what's happened in more modern cultures, because we have so many programs, which are about finding talented people, supposedly, there's an awful lot focused on singers and singing voices. So everyone all of a sudden has become a critic. And everyone now thinks that you have to be a certain standard before you can sing. And that's rubbish. Because that's not what singing is about. Singing is about expressing your feelings of joy or, or even misery is just about getting yourself out there and doing it and being heard. And of course, if we put if we pile all this stuff onto people and make them almost feel ashamed, because their voice isn't, as we want it to be, or it isn't quite the same as some famous singer that we're judging everyone against. That's not That's not right. That's not what we do. And unfortunately, I work in schools as well. So I am involved in music education, and I'm, I always have to strike that balance as well. Because in music education, of course, people are expected to get better at whatever instrument they have. So if they're, if singing is their choice, they're expected to get better at singing. But it should never be at the expense of the joy of expressing themselves. So it's such those things together. Yeah. And you can, you can do those things together. I mean, music therapy exists to work on
Zoe Zelick 17:37
just helping people to using it to communicate or perhaps using it in a different way. But I think music education and helping people to get better at singing as well, is equally important. So what I do is I put them together. So people get better at singing, but they also enjoy the communication that they're making, and except whatever situation they happen to be in at the time. So there's, there's different ways of doing it. You also need to have to make it work. So for somebody who perhaps isn't very confident, which is a lot of people, when they first start working with me, that's how they feel, you also have to have an audience that understands. So what I wouldn't do is put someone who's very nervous in front of an audience that are very judgmental, right, that's a recipe for disaster. Yes. And we mustn't ever do that to ourselves, or to our children, either. Let's stop doing this to kids, you know, they've been singing for five minutes, then all of a sudden, we do a performance in front of the whole school. Now, you can only do that, if the whole school, understand how it feels to be up there in front of 300 other people, you've got a friendly school, or if you've got people that perform all the time anyway, so everyone takes their turn, and they used to perform and in small groups there, they've done it all the way through their lives, then that's okay. Because everyone will applaud anyway, because just stepping up there in front of people is worth appreciating by itself, even before you open your mouth and do anything. So if you've got an audience that get it, that's great. You've got no problem at all.
Braco Pobric 19:19
But it's also like some of us, you know, some people say, Well, I'm not going to perform. I just want to sing for myself, you know, in the shower, at home with my friends and family. All right, we don't have to Yeah, you know, perform. We can just have fun for ourselves and when we ready to perform we could but otherwise, it's it's it's extremely helpful, right for our well being. We already know that. Yeah. Yeah,
Unknown Speaker 19:47
it's totally know.
Braco Pobric 19:49
Now that we said that, you know, I'm going to ask you something, actually. I'm sure it's not gonna make that uncomfortable. Maybe. How about we not wait you Sing us a song.
Unknown Speaker 20:02
Maybe save you a song? Yeah, maybe
Braco Pobric 20:04
you think as you play, you're seeing your maybe even something about happiness. What do you think?
Zoe Zelick 20:10
Well, maybe you've heard that I've actually written a song about happiness then in that case, it is not finished. I have to say that it is not finished. God that's it. You know, it's good enough. It's good enough to share.
Braco Pobric 20:24
So you did not perform, you know, play this song with like, 1000s of people yet in front of 1000s
Zoe Zelick 20:30
I haven't played it for anybody yet.
Braco Pobric 20:32
Now you're going to all of our audience. Let's go ahead Peter Stone. My friend Zoe, and I guess a cute
Zoe Zelick 20:41
Yeah, it's an exclusive that I better have a quick drink then. Wow,
Braco Pobric 20:45
yes. Have a quick drink. I don't know what you're drinking there. But hopefully, it's
Zoe Zelick 20:51
just a cup of tea. I find that the best thing of all for singing. Other people use all sorts of things for singing but now I think T is the best thing. What I do have a problem with is my headphones and where they go when I'm playing the guitar. But anyway, I'll try not to get tangled up. And I ought to just tune up as well because it's not good if it's out of tune. You know,
Braco Pobric 21:17
I need help tuning my guitar you and I have to talk because I
Zoe Zelick 21:23
Well, I've got a nice little tuner on the end, which helps and makes it a lot quicker. So that's not bad actually. That's okay. Is that Is that loud enough? And I do have this problem where my headphones drop out as well when I'm playing the guitar so I'm gonna
Braco Pobric 21:41
just keep it
Zoe Zelick 21:46
that should be okay. Yeah, so this is written about he has written about happiness and it's written about how I reckon happiness is always there but we don't always recognize this there so we have to sometimes remind ourselves so that's what it's about is a bit yes is there in the lyrics I think about you might not get that I'm going to shift over as well
oh happy life before I know that oh happy to live me that resistor Are you proud of your choice Do you listen to the voice just by thinking too small sit back on the show
so you're not seeing someone how many is how many fees oh happy to sit in the corner like before I know its existence. Down the river are you faced with yourself? Before you've got to know you question your house? Doesn't take a lot to say you try some. search for answers to your question. But you're looking in the wrong direction. Happy Nurses sitting in the corner. Resist Good.
Braco Pobric 25:21
Thank you so much. This was wonderful. Thank you for reminding us that happiness is always there, as you mentioned earlier that you sit in a corner. And it's always there for us to grab it. Thank you so much. This was wonderful. Thanks for encouraging people to sing to dance to have fun and perform. If they can. Thank you very much. I will talk to you soon. And thanks so much. Take care. You too. Hello, everyone. So today, we have Zoe Zoe. Zoe is Master of Music, psychology and also post a psychology master coach. But today, we will be talking about different types of coaching. We never discussed this on my show, we're gonna be talking about voice coaching. So Zoey, welcome, my friend.
Zoe Zelick 26:14
Hello, thank you. It's nice to be here again.
Braco Pobric 26:19
Thank you so much. So, so great. So great to see you. So. So I wanted to talk to you about, you know, a coaching, specifically voice coaching that you do. And it's a really interesting topic, because I think, at least, you know, in folks that I train, this is the first time I ran into somebody who does voice coaching. So there are I'm sure a lot of folks who can, you know, not only use your services, also, who would love me to do this for a living, and just to learn more about it, so, so I want to connect that again, voice coaching with business and happiness. So let's get started my friend.
Zoe Zelick 26:57
Excellent. Okay. Yeah. Well, the first thing is probably, as soon as you mentioned voice coaching, people think that it's all about vocal technique, which of course it is, that's part of it. But there's an awful lot more to it than that, or there is when you work with me anyway. Because it's about your voices, it's part of you, obviously, isn't it, it's part of, you know, in a physical way, because you're making physical sounds. But it's also part of you in an emotional way, in a mental way. It's part of your learning, it's part of who you are. And it's that aspect that often comes up with people. So they might come to me and say, and people come with all sorts of different issues. So they might come and say that, Oh, they want help, because they can't project they want help with vocal projection. So okay, we'd start with that. But what usually comes up is it's not about how well they use their vocal equipment, as much as it's about how they feel about themselves. And very often, there's an underlying issue about them being happy about speaking up, and being who they are, and people hearing who they are, and knowing who they are.
Braco Pobric 28:12
Or, you know, what's so cool is that you connected now. So basically, what you're telling me that you're not just coaching them, you know, to, to have a better different, you know, whatever voice, are you connecting all of that with true life coaching, right, with all the tools that you have in your toolbox? As opposed to psychology master coach, and everything else that you have with the voice coaching, right?
Zoe Zelick 28:38
Yes. Yeah, absolutely. So I find out quite quickly, that somebody who has performance anxiety, it's because they're not absolutely sure about who they are. So something that I might use with them would be the VIIa strengths, testing the character strengths, which would just give an overview of, of the sorts of things we might use their top five, and might use their signature strengths as just a way of introducing them to well, this is an objective way of looking at what your strengths might be. Because very often, you ask people what their strengths are, and they'll come up with a different list. Yeah, ones that they might get if they do a test. And sometimes, you know, it's not necessarily that the test is better. It's just that it gives a different perspective. And it's sometimes a more objective thing. And I find with people very often, it gives them things that they wouldn't necessarily have put at the top of their list. It's like
Braco Pobric 29:35
when when our friends tell us you know, you're really good at this and we go no, I'm not. Yeah,
Zoe Zelick 29:41
because very often because we're good at it, we we assume that everyone can do it. So we don't even see the value that it has to other people. And the way it works with for instance if you if you're a coach, and you come to me because you want help with projection you don't think that you're coming across very well on camera, for instance, and then we dig into your values, we might find that actually, it's because maybe you're not in line with your values. Maybe it's because the things that you're saying, are not necessarily lined up with your strengths. So if we can then work out what the strengths are, and then really look at the the types of words that you're actually using and how you're coming across, that will really help. Another thing I might do is, I've been putting together it's almost like a manual, a manual of yourself. So which sounds ridiculous because none of us come with a manual when we're born,
Braco Pobric 30:40
or you're going to come with one.
Zoe Zelick 30:43
Yeah. Because sometimes we forget who we are. I mean, I do the same when I go live. Sometimes I'm sort of totally in the moment. And I just say whatever comes into my head very often. So in that respect, I'm being true to myself. But if I actually think about it afterwards, I think, oh, no, I should have said this. And I should have said that. And I should have said that. And, and I really want to say that. So the thing to do is to get a kind of, is to have a plan almost. So you, you want to find out who you are, and write your own manual. So it's a kind of this is me. And of course, there's two, there's two separate things going on here. Because this is you in private might be different from this as new in public.
Braco Pobric 31:24
Yes. And that's okay. Because people are authenticity, it's absolutely fine. When you go out here form and sing and perform, it's different. When you meet a family, you know, it's still you. It's not like a different person. It's one person, every question, I was thinking, as you walk me through this process, and I'm thinking of some of the performance that might cut performers, you might come do you get to push from people saying, Give me this? Like, I don't need to know about myself, I'm here to try to help you with the voice. What are you doing?
Zoe Zelick 31:59
Do you? Yes. Or no, my children? Yeah, one of my children. And I should point out that she's autistic, which does have a bearing on this, and I think, but she said to me one day, she turned around to me, I just said something nice to her. I can't remember what it was. But she turned to me and said, my mum pays you to teach me to sing, not to build my self esteem. And I thought that was so funny. But I just kind of smiled. And I said to her, well, it's worked so far, though, hasn't it? So, so I kind of go with it. And what she said is absolutely true. People do they come to me, usually to help them sing, or to help them with their vocal performance in some way, they don't come to me for the other stuff. The other stuff, I love what you write,
Braco Pobric 32:47
I love your approach, because you are true coach, you finding what they really need, because that's our job. Our job is not just with clients tell us to do, it's not our job. Our job is to figure out what they really need. Right? If that's not what they can, and that's really amazing. I don't know, if there are many, you know, call them you know, voice coaching coaches that do what you do this, I love it?
Zoe Zelick 33:19
Well, I always say that I'm combining three things, okay. Because I, there's three things that I'm really passionate about, and that I feel everybody needs to perform at their best. So it is it's personality, insights, not necessarily Personality Typing, although that might come into it. So it might be like I said, the strengths, that's one thing. And positive psychology in itself is a big issue as well, because you want people to feel good when they're performing. If they're not feeling good, then they're not going to be their best self. And for me, it's about public performance is about being your best self. So you might be different. But when you're, especially if you're representing your business, or you're representing your band, or you're there to show your best self, so you don't necessarily want people to see every part of you. Because there's some bits that you know, just between you and nobody else you in the dead still. Right. So okay, yeah. So you're showing them your best self, you're showing them what you want them to see. But it's also still a version of you said positive psychology. Feeling good, is really, really important. Because it's knowing that you're showing your best. It's like when you put your best outfit on, it makes you feel good. So it's the same with if you bring your best performance and makes you feel good. It makes you shine in front of an audience, rather than just be somebody mumbling away into a microphone. Yeah. Yes, I know that what you're saying is being heard as well. Of course, if it's coming from the heart and it's it's your best message and you've carefully crafted it and thought about how you say it, then you come across as authentic because it's part of you. Oh, yeah, this is the other thing actually did that phrase, practice makes perfect. I hate that phrase. Because I don't like the notion of perfectionism. And
Braco Pobric 35:19
when I used to train, teach train people, Dale Carnegie, we would say, practice, make it permanent. So if you make a practice of something bad, is going to stick with the bear if you make a practice of good, so practice doesn't make it perfect. It depends what you practice.
Zoe Zelick 35:35
Yeah. And then, and I would go, my usual phrase is practice makes personal. Yes. And I mean that in a quite a physical way. Also, because if you if you rehearse something, something important to you. So it might be, it might be a song. But equally, it might be your most important message, the thing that you most want people to understand about you or your business. But if you rehearse it, it does actually become part of you, it becomes part of your memory, it's stored in your brain, it rewires your neural circuits. So it does physically become part of you. So practice makes it personal. I think so.
Braco Pobric 36:17
Absolutely. So tell me about your your coaching. You know, I have a lot of discussions with the coaches and question is, what do I do? How do I create package? How long do I coach? You know, do I do one session? Do I do it? Well, how does your coaching look like your coaching business? As far as you know, I come and I say, you know, I really would like your services. And then what do you tell me? What do you show me? How do we Yes?
Zoe Zelick 36:48
Okay, so, so as I said, people usually come because they want something to do with vocal performance.
Braco Pobric 36:55
Can I just one more thing? I'm sorry, for interrupting? You also mentioned, if you're representing your business, so I would assume you don't do just performance voice coaching sounds like you also do, maybe not as much, but also I know what the name is, but you know, for voice coaching, if I wanted, you know, to just to have to know how to deal with my voice better.
Zoe Zelick 37:19
Yeah, to come across more with with singers, musicians, but also speakers. You can think of that as quite widely. So. So public speaker, let's call it Yes, yes. A better phrase. So it's, it's people that need to be able to speak in public. Recently, of course, there's been a whole load of new people near speaking public, because they're finding that the conversations that they used to just be having maybe in an office or with their colleagues, all of a sudden, they're having to be online all the time. They're having to make videos for peers. And all of a sudden, it's got scary, it's got a bit like public speaking. Yeah, just cause for something. Yeah, it isn't something that they've trained for, or even assumed they were ever going to do. So let's go
Braco Pobric 38:09
back to the coaching process, if you don't mind. So somebody comes in, regardless if it's a public speaking, or what's the process that you that que una could be just, you know, different for every client? I don't know. I don't mean to tools, because as you mentioned to me earlier, which is absolutely right, you don't know what tools you're going to use. That's what real coaches, do. They figure it out as the time goes on, you know, but is there like process? And how would somebody come to your country?
Zoe Zelick 38:38
So they would hopefully send me a message, or occasionally people will recommend me or they'll, they'll find out about me somehow. And then they I usually ask them what they need, first of all, or actually, they generally tell me what they want. Yes. Because because as you were saying, it's up to me to work out what they need, but they tell me what they want. And I ask them about that a little bit more. And what I'm doing is I'm just, I'm just trying to get to know them in that first conversation. So it might be it might be just an exchange of messages. Or it might be an actual physical conversation with me, but I'm trying to find out what it is that they think they need, and that they want. Because it's most important that I give them what they want. Of course, I'm not going to ignore that. I can give them what they want. But then what happens is we start sessions, and as people are doing whatever it is, if I'm working one to one, it's more obvious because we'll be working on something in particular. So as we're working on something in particular, something else will come up. And I'll say, Oh, I noticed that, you know, maybe you've got a few feelings around that issue, or do you actually know who you're trying to be when you say that, or does that link with your value? Use or does. Does that is that in line with your mission statement? So I might ask questions like that if I feel that something's come up, and and then they're like, they'll either give me an answer when they say, Oh, yes, I know absolutely what I'm doing, and I'm doing this, which doesn't happen very often. Usually what they say is, well, no, actually, I'm not really sure about that. And then that is where the doorway is opened, perhaps looking at a different angle. So I might then suggest something. So I might say, well, maybe it would help if we talked about your values. Or maybe it would help if we looked at where your performance anxiety comes from, or whatever it happens to be. So I'll make a suggestion. Now it's up to people then as to what they do with that, sometimes I get a straight Oh, no, no, no, I need to do this, or I want to do that. And it's usually fear talking. Yeah, when that happens. So if that happens, at first, I'll just leave that and we'll carry on working on what they've chosen to work on. But I tend to make notes of these things. And I come back to them, I'm a bit persistent, like that. And then hopefully, a little bit further down the line, when they perhaps trust me a little bit more, we've done a little bit more work, I'll bring it up again. And usually at that point, if they weren't prepared to look at it last time, they're prepared, prepared to look at it now. So I might then suggest, some psychometrics to help. Or I might make a recommendation of something to look at or to something to go and think about, or I might have some questions that I'll send them. And they'll give them some thinking time to figure it out first, because I think sometimes if you bombard people with stuff, in the moment, you don't always get a considered response, you don't always get the truth. Whereas if you give them time to go away, think about it. Yeah. So
Braco Pobric 41:48
you know, this is this is really interesting, because obviously, you are not afraid to push your clients. And that's what experienced coaches do. You know, new coaches are afraid to push them because they think they lose the client, which is absolutely fine. It was applying to right. But this is I love to hear this where you persistence, you push, and until you get to results for your clients that right, that that's what they paying you for. You're paying you for that. But they don't know that sometimes they don't want to be pushed, but it's our job to push. Right?
Zoe Zelick 42:25
Yeah. And I and I do have to sometimes it depends on the personality of the person coming to me as well. I may have to spend some time complimenting them and making them feel good, first of all, because if they come with this, all these negative associations, then the last thing that's going to help was me then saying, Oh, well, that's no good, you've got to work on this, then you've got to work on this, then you've got to work on this. I don't think you should ever pile on too much work in one go. I think you've got to gauge the personality of the person before you start going too deep. If you see what I mean, so sure that he couldn't just cope with different levels of, of work. That's what I'm trying to say, of course, and I spend a lot of time listening to them at the beginning and being absolutely sure about who they are and what they can cope with before. I then make suggestions,
Braco Pobric 43:22
the key coaching skills, right? The key skill active listening, is there a difference between? Well, I'm sure there is but what is the difference? I guess maybe the right question between coaching somebody who is a performer versus coaching a business person who wants to be a better, you know, public speaker, as we discussed earlier,
Zoe Zelick 43:44
I don't think there is a lot of difference. Other than Yeah, other than obviously, if it's a performer, it's going to be more about the music. So the the song choice will play a part. But then equally, if it's somebody in business, then it's not a song choice, but it's still a material choice. It's still about their content at the end, so you're so out the mess
Braco Pobric 44:05
is a court you're going to content is valuable you to message, you just the voice. It's amazing. Yes.
Zoe Zelick 44:12
The content is equivalent to the song as a performer, isn't it? It's the especially if it's something that is repeated a lot. It can still be rehearsed the same way you might rehearse a song. So you know, I mean, an obvious thing is probably the elevator pitch, isn't it? I mean, everyone's told to write these glorious elevator pitches. But if you can't actually remember your elevator pitch, what's the point? Because you're never gonna say it. And maybe the reason you don't remember it is because you don't really mean it. So there's a whole load of issues there with working on elevator pitches is first of all you have something that feels real
Braco Pobric 44:48
I and I really love how you take the truly like holistic approach of coaching and you take all these pieces. This just reminds me I think I was telling you I got an agency to help you with marketing and stuff. And now I have this director who basically coaches me, you know, results, like really amazing and how he does it. You know, he's in Australia. And, and when he mentioned content, right, so he was coaching me on a voice, as well as content, as well as posture, right? So everything, so, and that's really what you said you're doing, even though business content is not, you know why they came to you? They came for voice, but yet you could, this is really cool. I really wish we had more people like him seriously. Seriously, this is really, like, that's like coach that I want. You know, I have a business coach who's really focusing on the business, and I have these guys helping with this, but like, what you do is like, the whole package,
Zoe Zelick 45:52
Yeah, cuz it's got to be about the real person hasn't the whole person. And that's why my business is called own your voice. And it's not just about the physical voice. It's about how your voice expresses itself. In however you choose to use it through your content, as well. So it's, it's about your inner voice and your outer voice and, and whether you know the difference where and what you're prepared to say. So it's, it's how you say it, but also what you say, and who you say it to? And then it's everything, isn't it? And in what situation, you're going to say it as well, all of those things affect your voice. And it's, it's all connected to who you are. So that's what I mean, for me, it's seamless. For me, the connection is obvious. But I realized that it's not to everyone. But yes, personality, psychology, performance, they're all linked really closely together. And it's my job just to help people kind of conceal the connections, and make it all work together so that the whole thing feels genuine. When they perform. Yeah,
Braco Pobric 47:02
you know, with the voice, I have a personal question. How much breathing is important? And what's the connection? Like I'm learning now just you know, how really important it is. They say that oxygen is like the key for actors and actresses that sit the way you breathe, when you when you when you act, but I assume it's performed regular performance like you as
Zoe Zelick 47:27
well, of course, yeah, I mean, breath is your fuel. So without breath, you can't make him nothing. That's your fuel. But it's, it's how you use the breath, it moves around your body, and it vibrates in different places. So as singers, we talk about chest voice and head voice, because those are different areas that we resonate in. And voice, there's also, well, by headphones, all we mean really is resonating in any part. Yeah. But
Braco Pobric 47:57
it's interesting. So you might,
Zoe Zelick 47:59
you know, if you're going to throw your voice forward, you might push more into your nose. Whereas if you if you kind of like, if you want a more kind of relaxed voice, you might drop your jaw a little bit. So you can affect your tone. And it affects depends what you do. I mean, if you were doing meditations, for instance, audio meditations, you don't want someone chatting like this, when you're meditating do so you'd have to learn to just kind of relax your tones and perhaps, speak slightly differently. And, and more quietly as well. You want a more kind of close miked. The other thing is attack correctly, isn't it? And you can have a close mic technique where you want the microphone really close to your mouth, if you're if you want a more intimate feel. Or else if it's more a kind of performative element, you want it further away. So there's more projection. So
Braco Pobric 48:49
let me ask you this from your from, from your experience. You know, some of us are overly enthusiastic, and we come across with a lot of energy and some people can handle that. So sometimes we have to adjust. Right. So I had this discussion for years with people. You know, I know I come overly enthusiastic when I do my trainings. And sometimes I have to sit down, right to to kind of calm and write. But also most of my coaches says, Just Just be yourself. People either connect or they don't with you. That's fine. Some people love it. Some will not. That's okay. What is your opinion that really curious about? Yeah,
Zoe Zelick 49:33
well, I think I do go along with the Be yourself. But I also think you need to bear your subject matter and your audience in mind. So be yourself in an appropriate situation.
Braco Pobric 49:46
Exactly. Yes. Yeah.
Zoe Zelick 49:48
If you if you were talking to someone quietly and intimately about something quite personal, then then you would be quieter, wouldn't you? And you'd kind of you want to draw them in, rather than away. Yeah.
Braco Pobric 49:59
When you said that when I was doing these last recordings, which was like, you know, a couple of minutes about, you know, a minute or 220 or so, videos. So my, my, my director basically says, you know, this is now we need to get you out to new people. So I don't know you. So like, later on, you can be or be enthusiastic. But right now, it's like, you know, we don't want you know, you want just to come across natural, you're talking to them, right. So that's exactly what you saying. Just simply amazing how much we can learn from folks like yourself, we need, we need you guys. We need you guys. Is there Hank? You know what, seriously, I'm just so so. So, so excited about what I'm learning throughout this quick session? Is there like one or two things you would recommend people to do? It could be either like a coaches who, you know, do similar things that you do, or like folks that would want to learn more about like, I really know, I'm really interested to learn more about voice you really got me into this, so that I can be better at what I do. What is the one or two give us a lot of tips, but is there some?
Zoe Zelick 51:14
Well? Yeah, I think I think the obvious thing to do is to record yourself and watch it with an outsider's eyes, which I know is easier said than done. But you so many people kind of avoid that they don't I don't look very good on camera. I don't want to watch myself, I don't want to listen to myself. But actually, how are you going to get better? Unless you do, you don't want to totally rely on another person telling you because you're only getting their opinion? Yeah, you do have to be able to look at yourself and look at yourself critically and honestly, not look at yourself, maybe probably the best way to think of it is look at yourself, as if it's your best friend doing it. So your best friend asks you for help to improve their vocal performance. So you would be kind to yourself when you be kind to your best friend. So you should be kind to yourself as well. But you'd also give them the help they were asking for you wouldn't tell them that it was it was great if it really wasn't how you need to be with yourself. And I think the only way to do it is to look at it after the event, you can't look at yourself as you're doing it live and you don't want to anyway, because you want to be in the moment. Exactly. So you have to do some sort of recording video is great, because of course, then you've got audio and visual. But at different times. So you know not when you're really tired after you've just done it. But maybe a couple of days later, view your performance and have a look at it. And just say to yourself things like, well, if I was a stranger, and I was seeing myself for the first time, how would I come across? What would I be noticing? What What qualities does my voice have? What am I picking up from looking at this person? What messages are coming across? And you can do it? I mean, you can invite your friends to have a look and tell you critically as well. Yes, and see what sorts of things people say. Because people will have different opinions and they will pick up on different things, obviously, but what you want is a an objective view of your performance. So that and it's very difficult, isn't it to take criticism because we either take it too harshly or else we kind of don't know what they're talking about. They don't know anything. So I think it's very hard to actually take criticism and use it in a positive way. But if we can do that, then that's brilliant, because that's how you make small improvements.
Braco Pobric 53:45
Yeah, well, I think we have to be early if we're ready to go out to public, right? Now we better be ready to take the criticism because we know that's coming. And, you know, you just reminded me of, you know, I used to do the training where we would basically do live, you know, you would we would record you your presentation a couple of minutes. And then we will take you to another room while we continue to training. And another trainer would give you live immediate feedback, right? So you will know exactly. So So recording, getting a feedback, looking at yourself getting feedback from other people, as you said is really key. Key key key to success. So Zoe, thank you so so much. This was so much fun. I learned so much from you and I'm sure your our listeners will learn even more. And I know we're going to post information so they can reach out if you wanted to if they wanted to. Thank you so so much.
Zoe Zelick 54:42
It's been an absolute pleasure. It's been lovely. I just I love to talk about all of these things. Anyway, so it just given me a reason to do so. Which is lovely. Thank you very much
Braco Pobric 54:52
when it comes from passion. That's what right it comes from your Oh yeah, passion. We can fill it. Thanks, man. I've read well don't you soon thank you take care become the life success academy founding member go to academy of life success.com and click on founding member to get 60% of full membership
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
